Generic buffs for bot. Do they work?

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Post by Hxer » Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:03 am

Vabla wrote:Well the general +20 buff should in theory add 5% of the bot's base damage (both min and max)
Only if the attack rating is exactly 400 - and in this case, with a bot againsh hecklers, it was most likely quite abit higher.
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Post by twoshots » Thu Jun 12, 2008 8:48 am

:idea: As an aside there was a similar discussion previously in the crat forum: http://www.aofroobs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3917

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Post by twoshots » Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:33 am

OK, had a bit of rummage around so here's some links for you, note that most of the info was provided by Lyricia on the AO professional forums back in 2004.

This one includes links to the database for the bot weapons. RK bots have a melee right hand and energy left hand weapon with a 100% MA attack skill and 100% EvadeClsC defense skill.
http://forums.anarchy-online.com/showth ... did=298007

The linked right hand weapon (RK bot):
http://aomainframe.info/showitem.aspx?AOID=120653
The linked left hand weapon (RK bot):
http://aomainframe.info/showitem.aspx?AOID=120656


Sooooo, MA exp should increase the AR of your bot :)

Now, the question is by how much (relatively speaking).... so from the linky above, the ARs calculated for some sample bots...:
Lyricia wrote: ql 25 Flawed Android: 98
ql 46 Feeble Gladiatorbot: 194
ql 79 Feeble Guardbot: 352
ql 97 Guardbot: 432
ql 112 Feeble Warbot: 487
ql 160 Common Warmachine: 600
ql 178 Semi-Sentient Warmachine: 566
ql 184 Decomissioned Wardroid: 604
ql 187 Reactivated Wardroid: 607
ql 200 Slayer Guardian: 623
So there you go, the info could be all correct, or not. The links also include how people calculated the above numbers, so you can disagree if you want to. Or you can recreate the test both with your bot buffed by MA exp and not and calculate the AR for your bot. Obviously you should get an AR that differs by 20 if all the above is correct.

EDIT: I've tested this on backyard mobs and it doesn't increase the crit of your bot. So, that scuppers that...

Whilst I'm here and this post is already far too long I'll add the method for calculating the AR....:
Lyricia wrote: Its been known for a while that every 400 points in AR(ie AR/400)adds 100% to your current weapons damage. This translates into

MyDamage = WeaponDamage*(1+(AR/400))

With some quick algebra we can turn that formula into this one

AR = ((MyDamage/WeaponDamage)-1) * 400

With me so far? Good

Now we need to figure out Weapon Damage. Its easy. Our 1-200 pets use a Engineer Pet Right Fist and Engineer Pet Left Fist that are the same QL as the pet itself.

Next we need MyDamage. We need a good constant number for this.

Luckily for us whenever you critically hit something you do full damage so this gives us a good constant number to work with. I had each of my pets critically hit a leet for this experiment.

This system of critting a leet and then looking up the pet's damage in aodb worked well until I tried the new SL pets which is what the next section is about.
Last edited by twoshots on Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Ferengi » Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:48 pm

Vabla wrote:Zoning or no zoning, the MA general buff should have at LEAST increased the AR of the bot and in turn it's damage if it was affecting anything.

Pet run speed is slightly larger than it's master's run speed was when the pet was summoned. If you summon your pet and then get GSF you'll easily outrun your pet. If you get GSF and THEN summon your pet it'll manage to keep up with you.
Yup, that RS observation matches my old post here and what I've always thought. So I believe your MA results (it don't do squat) and stick with the 'pets are simple' belief....since if I CANNOT OBSERVE any effect, none exists.

I guess I need to add one more buff to my short list, buffing AR seems to show better results on my ToTW warmachines by noting damage taken from Lien. Otherwise, only pet nanos do useful things to pets....which MetaIng took care of by adding a new nano buff for mezz pet.

I suppose the counter question to BigMX is 'if all those player nanos really are useful, why do pet nanos exist?'.
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Post by Ferengi » Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:56 pm

twoshots wrote: So there you go, the info could be all correct, or not, but it's a step closer then the guessing.
There is no reason to guess and no reason to pay attention to posts from many patches ago. It's simple, damage dumpers have been around for a long time now. It's simple to setup a pet test noting damage. It's simple to make a boasting post on official forums giving damage dumper output showing how you have proved what nanos work. It's simple to find such a post IF IT EXISTED.

..but fairy tales are always entertaining and dreaming is fun..

I rank buffing pets just below the CoH chests on the troll list...hmm, that might bump the GA in safes....
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Post by hahnsoo » Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:48 am

I'm skeptical that those AR numbers are the actual AR of bots, because they seem to hit a LOT more often than players with an equivalent AR.
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Post by Sferykal » Sat Jun 14, 2008 10:12 am

BigMx wrote:Let's say that if mobs were given set AR values [...] each level of a mob has a different AR and that works just like players weapon skills when you think about it.
That's exactly how it works. I can't remember anymore where I posted the Cyborg ACs for some damage types; the numbers clearly indicated scaling of their ACs according to level (actually some linear dependency).
BigMx wrote:The fact that we do know that pet's must have AC values [...] You could also assume that if mobs have a psychic value, why not an intelligence value...what about an agility value?
Wrong question. The question here is: Why would you need an INT or AGL value? You already mentioned why PSY is needed, but what are INT and AGL good for? If you can't really answer this without doing speculations, they are most likely not used at all. Now, we don't know how the code looks like, granted, it could be unused data, unless you are willing to risk some big mess ...
twoshots wrote:Sooooo, MA exp should increase the AR of your bot
Thus, MA exp should also increase the critical hit on backyard mobs, shouldn't it? But it doesn't ... However, if I buff my Assault Rifle skill with expertise, I get 8 more crit damage on my soldier (Attack Rating is past 1k).
hahnsoo wrote:I'm skeptical that those AR numbers are the actual AR of bots, because they seem to hit a LOT more often than players with an equivalent AR.
Yeah, I was thinking along the same line. Now the AAO buffs are pretty huge, but I don't think they make up for that.

The problem here is that some players assume the database contains everything, but unfortunately that's not the case. One example: MA templates for players. The database doesn't say which profession has which template. To get back to the weapon templates for pets: The MA skill dependency could just be a default value, instead of having any actual meaning. Just a thought ...
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Post by BigMx » Sun Jun 15, 2008 5:40 am

Sferykal wrote:
BigMx wrote:The fact that we do know that pet's must have AC values [...] You could also assume that if mobs have a psychic value, why not an intelligence value...what about an agility value?
Wrong question. The question here is: Why would you need an INT or AGL value? You already mentioned why PSY is needed, but what are INT and AGL good for? If you can't really answer this without doing speculations, they are most likely not used at all. Now, we don't know how the code looks like, granted, it could be unused data, unless you are willing to risk some big mess ...

Well, that's the thing....none of us are developers for this game and all we can do is speculate as to why you need or don't need anything this game has to offer. When it comes down to it, I prefer the more optimistic point of view and think more in terms of "why don't we need" rather than "why do we need it".


I certainly could think of ways in which a dev could make use of other stats such as intelligence where it's effectiveness isn't easily noticeable to the players even with testing.

Then lets not rule out human error....some stats may simply be broken as well....the conceal vs perception issue has been busted for how long...since launch of the game 7 years ago? or so I assume.....well let not rule out that other stats aren't the same.

I mean what if the pets are supposed to use brawl for meatball, MA for a demon, melee energy for a engy bot....yet the formula could be broken so that when we do use those buffs, they aren't working properly...and only thing used is AAO. then since it doesn't present a game breaking problem, devs could have just decided to not bother fixing it...as not having such mechanics does not stop one from enjoying their profession.

Again, quantum wings was bugged in that the reason you couldn't keep it active when zoning was because the playshift requirements only check for if you had the base ability requirement to have QW active....since buffs aren't included in that calculation and it checked against the base value you had, QW would cancel when zoning and you had to recast. what makes me believe that was the case is because that it only happened to players of lower level who used buffs to cast QW...but when you had the 480 requirements through base abilities (no buffs at all), you could zone and you wouldn't lose QW upon zoning. Unfortunately, they fixed it before I could try any testing myself...but that was my theory on it just from looking at what people were saying about it and what I saw when I used QW myself. First thing I noticed when zoning on any toon is that any buffs you had temporarily cancel completely (you have not buffs active while actually zoning...upon materializing on the other side of the zone border, the buffs then would come back....it's still doing that today...but i'm sure the devs have worked out some other way to make playshift requirement checks now.


so you see, there are many possibilities and many things that could be an issue other than assuming stats don't do anything or that NPC's don't have but only certain stats....there are too many intangibles that come into play....it's why I prefer the more optimistic point of view.

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Post by twoshots » Sun Jun 15, 2008 11:55 pm

Sferykal wrote:
twoshots wrote:Sooooo, MA exp should increase the AR of your bot
Thus, MA exp should also increase the critical hit on backyard mobs, shouldn't it? But it doesn't ... However, if I buff my Assault Rifle skill with expertise, I get 8 more crit damage on my soldier (Attack Rating is past 1k).
I see the same, the crit doesn't go up, and as you've said it does go up when you buff the weapons skill for your char. Thus implying no MA skill on your bot. I meant to add an edit to my post but went on holiday instead :roll:
Sferykal wrote:To get back to the weapon templates for pets: The MA skill dependency could just be a default value, instead of having any actual meaning. Just a thought ...
This seems quite plausible to me, just ends up giving you an AR which is not connected to any skill. I'm leaning towards the no benefit to buffing your bot MA skill, as an aside debuffing you bots MA skill might be interesting. Does it reduce the crit value? Has anyone used the skill inexperience nanos on pets/NPCs?

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Post by Vabla » Mon Jun 16, 2008 5:09 am

BigMx wrote:Lots of text etc...
Devs could have intended a lot of things. Including perfect pathing for pets and perfect balance between professions.
But the fact is that it makes no difference. We have the mechanics that we have and if they are the ones intended or not they still work the same way.
So what if they intended all the abilities to be useful and general buffs affecting pet damage? They aren't and that's the thing that matters.



P.S. WTB Pet Combat Warp in game.
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Post by Ar1z » Sat Jun 21, 2008 1:18 am

So today I'm hunting for ql 1 notum chips at the backyards (i think they drop there can anyone confirm it?) so i figure i could give it a try i buffed my lvl 1 bot with ma and me exp and send it against the mobs (which are also lvl 1) I didn't noticed any difference, with or without the buffs dmg was the same...

Edit: Where can i find a really low ql notum chip? I'm trying to make engineer pistol and my unstable preservation system is ql 1

OK never mind i got a nottum nugget of a leet... after 3 hours camping... now i need a hammer...
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Post by Ferengi » Sat Jun 21, 2008 3:22 pm

Ar1z wrote:Edit: Where can i find a really low ql notum chip? I'm trying to make engineer pistol and my unstable preservation system is ql 1
You sure you need a QL1? Did you try popping them into the tradeskill window (shift-T) to see what would work?

Usually I killed the yellowish tin cans, as they can drop two of the parts for Engi Pistol. It's easier to just get another part sometimes.
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Post by Ar1z » Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:02 am

Yes i tried with a ql 39 notum chip. I got a message that said the unstable preservation system must be of ql 35ish in order to combine them. The guide doesn't say anything about it tho...


EDIT: Back to topic...

I was at beta golfball and i noticed a strange thing. Heavy Cargo Bot had it's arm on fire! The effect Martial Artists have when they use their damage boost nanoline (Energized Fists etc)!. Strange!
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Post by zendadaist » Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:07 am

Could try killing reets/leets in the backyards for low QL notum chips. That's where I've found mine in the past. Very low droprate though.
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Re: Generic buffs for bot. Do they work?

Post by Suusrmursu » Mon Jul 20, 2009 12:33 am

*humps the corpse of thread*

Meh, I'm still going to use pet ncu increasers and buff every possible ability and skill on them just in case.
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