Generic buffs for bot. Do they work?

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Generic buffs for bot. Do they work?

Post by Ar1z » Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:24 pm

Hello fellow engineers!

I noticed that bot does melee and energy damage. I had some generic nanos looted from subway so i buffed my bot with melee energy and MA expertise. This was done on a lvl 82 guardbot. I can't say I noticed any difference in damage output. Has anyone else done that to a lower lvl bot? Do generic buffs increase bot damage even a bit?

ty

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Post by BigMx » Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:46 pm

No I don't think those general nano's affect pets damage....well not the ones that modify skills. The one's that give +damage most likely do affect damage because otherwise I don't see why some of MP and Engy pet buffs even include the +damage on them along with the +AAO or Speed Initiatives.

Some say that martial arts expertise may help boost AR of mobs that use melee attacks becuase the only melee attack a mob would use, logically speaking would be martial arts. The problem is the buff is so low of an effect, and the mobs ranged of damages vary so greatly it would be hard to tell if those nano's affect anything without do very extensive testing.

In my opinion, it doesn't hurt to go ahead and buff your pets with extra nano's if you have extra ncu available on your pet....if it doesn't help, then no harm done, if it does help, then you just might be gaining an extra point or so of damage.

So I always buff my pets with brawl and martial arts if I have the room....and also with any +damage mods also (like weapon enhancement or energy spike..etc.)

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Post by Ar1z » Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:49 pm

Thank you.
This confirms my thoughts.
If i have time and i'm in the mood i'll create a low lvl bot and test it. I think on a lvl 10 bot it will be more evident. ;)

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Post by Vabla » Tue Jun 10, 2008 8:47 am

I used to always buff my slayer with MA expertise. But a few days ago when I was doing hecklers on my crat I decided to test if it actually affects the damage (hecklers are perfect for these tests as you always hit for the min on them).
Tested both the summoned droid and a charmed mob. Neither were doing a single point more damage compared to unbuffed when buffed with all comps (including ability and ranged specials).
The guess is that mobs (including pets) simply don't have any weapon skills but only AAO (heard that many times earlier but never believed it myself). It's strange considering the pet weapon uses MA as the attack skill. Maybe FC just got lost somewhere along the way and the weapons don't check skill or something.
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Post by Ar1z » Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:40 am

i don't think +20 MA skill will have an impact to min dmg it will probably affects max dmg, something like +3. Only the developers can answer some questions. It's better to test it on a lvl 10 or lower bot against several same level mobs with and without the buff. Still i bet it wouldn't make a difference...

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Post by Tyranii » Tue Jun 10, 2008 11:00 am

I'm pretty sure it does something for their AR/Max damage. The crat soloing guides talk all about fully buffing up your pet and charmed pets all the time. Difference might be marginal, yes, but I'm sure there is some effect
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Post by Vabla » Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:15 pm

Well the general +20 buff should in theory add 5% of the bot's base damage (both min and max) but there wasn't a difference (the crat had lvl 200 bot). Might test it with my slayer but there's nothing on RK with enough ACs to be hitting for minimum.
Could be right about it affecting only the AR and not damage. But that's something you can't be sure of.
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Post by Ferengi » Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:02 pm

Tyranii wrote:The crat soloing guides
The crat guides also talk about using Moving Control symbs in ToTW.

The only one of the pet buffs that many unobservant people claim works that does actually work is +psymod/si on mezz pet....and the only reason I believe that is due to a chat with MetaIng. No reason to believe that devs setup all the complicated player dynamics for pets.
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Post by BigMx » Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:39 pm

Ferengi wrote:
Tyranii wrote:The crat soloing guides
The crat guides also talk about using Moving Control symbs in ToTW.

The only one of the pet buffs that many unobservant people claim works that does actually work is +psymod/si on mezz pet....and the only reason I believe that is due to a chat with MetaIng. No reason to believe that devs setup all the complicated player dynamics for pets.
You know I think that pets do have some (not all) of the same dynamics as players. Even the pet only nano's do the same alterations on pets as they would on players (players just have their own version). For instance, the MP pet only nano's buff initiatives and give a damage boost....the player only version just buffs damage boost and initiatives have their own line (like doc, trader initiative buffs). The engy pets get sheilds, reflects, init. buffs, AAO/AAD buffs while the player only nano's get the same buffs but split up into separate lines as well.

So the only difference between pet buffs and player buffs is that pets get a number of buffs in one nano while players need multiple nano's and often from multiple professions and use more NCU having all those buffs. Basically there really isn't a lot of buffs that players get which pets can't have and actually work for them and help them perform better.

For example, pets can be buffed with run speed (indirectly), AC's, reflects, Shields, AAO/AAD, AggDef slider, taunts, AR boost, healed, snared, debuffed, mezzed, aggro'd and many other things...all of which work the same way with players. The only difference is that the pets are controlled by a limited A.I. while the person behind the keyboard is the A.I. for the player controlled character. Though we control the pet via commands, all we do is tell it attack, guard, following, heal..etc. everything else is automated or A.I. controlled (such as pets pathing and perception range when you put it on hunt mode).

Given all the ways that pets and players function, logically speaking, I don't see many differences (or enough of them) that pets would have a complete different dynamics than players. I mean, if you root a pet or a player, if you heal a pet or player, if you increase the damage or defense of the pet or player....what makes either any different from the other besides the pet is partially A.I. controlled?

So until FC or a Dev comes along and say that pets have their own combat system than players, I think I will stick with the idea that pets and players use the same combat routines.

I think many people have a problem believing that because when they buff a pet, they don't see an immediately noticeable change in the pets performance.....but that can only be monitored by seeing actual numbers, such as when we buff ourselves, a lot of the times you don't notice the difference easily....you do see the numbers change but it's not until you do targeted testing that you see the major difference in an AC buff, a damage buff or any other buff that you can't visually see easily....I mean it's like people expect to see a drastic change like when you run speed buff someone.....when it comes to pets, just because they don't run as fast as a player with GSF doesn't mean that GSF doesn't affect their run speed or movement speed.

As a matter of fact, I think that it would be a problem if you allowed pets to get GSF type run speed boost that affect movement speed like players....I see potential exploits (mainly in PVP and certain PVM situations)....therefore, if I were a programmer for such a mechanic, I'd make a GSF type buff alter the pets movement speed on a lower percentage than for players.....700 RS buff to a player would be instantly noticeable...but that same 700 RS buff to a pet would probably be like 100 extra RS for the pet.....then when in travel mode and it keeps up with the owner, RS can (and probably does) randomly alter based on if it's stuck or lagging too far behind the owner.....my guess is that's why sometimes if you watch, pets that are left way behind get a super movement speed increase when they are out of range of the owner...and if it's too far, they simply warp to you or close to you.

So things such as this may vary from how they work with players...but things such as AR, Offense, Defense...etc. may indeed work exactly the same with pets as they do with players.

Again, until it's proven it doesn't, then I'll keep buffing my pets with every buff that seems they might benefit from ;)

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Post by Agentcrt » Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:14 pm

No offence but +700 GSF does same affect as on player - have tested on MP's attack and heal pet. :D Pet is of course still slower than you (as it was before you buffed it, since I had gsf as well) but it goes fast enough that it can follow you easily...

So GSF buffs +790 even on pet's RS. And doing borgs with speedy healpet is worth it ;)

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Post by twoshots » Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:14 am

Just a random thought while browsing through...

Do +MA skill nanos suffer the same as increasing MA skill (with IP)? As in, it requires zoning out/in to update the invisible MA 'weapon'? If so hitting your bot (or yourself) with a +MA nano won't have any effect till after zoning when the MA weapon is updated.

(Or did the MA skill bug get fixed and I just read some old advice?)

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Post by BigMx » Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:44 am

Agentcrt wrote:No offence but +700 GSF does same affect as on player - have tested on MP's attack and heal pet. :D Pet is of course still slower than you (as it was before you buffed it, since I had gsf as well) but it goes fast enough that it can follow you easily...

So GSF buffs +790 even on pet's RS. And doing borgs with speedy healpet is worth it ;)
ok, good to know...it also should be said that only agents can cast the higher level speed buffs on pets through FP/AP/MP as other professions cannot buff other peoples pets.

Anyway, I was just using +700 RS as an example mostly through theory and common sense given how players expect to see immediate visual differences in performance of pets after buffing them.

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Post by Sferykal » Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:47 am

BigMx wrote:So until FC or a Dev comes along and say that pets have their own combat system than players, I think I will stick with the idea that pets and players use the same combat routines.
One question for you then: Why does a NPC need a combat skill? Afterall, the damage calculations are done via the attack rating in the end, there is no real need to give any mob, including your pet, a weapon skill. Guess why the pet buffs are all on AAO, why they added an AAO malus to trader drains. Mob combat stuff is always reduced to the bare minimum, mainly to save computing power and resources.
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Post by BigMx » Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:59 am

Sferykal wrote:
BigMx wrote:So until FC or a Dev comes along and say that pets have their own combat system than players, I think I will stick with the idea that pets and players use the same combat routines.
One question for you then: Why does a NPC need a combat skill? Afterall, the damage calculations are done via the attack rating in the end, there is no real need to give any mob, including your pet, a weapon skill. Guess why the pet buffs are all on AAO, why they added an AAO malus to trader drains. Mob combat stuff is always reduced to the bare minimum, mainly to save computing power and resources.
I would agree with not giving mobs extra things to calculate effectiveness in combat I'm not saying they have that, but if they did have combat specific skills it wouldn't be any extra load if they are using the same combat routines as players. If a player's AR is determined by his weapon skill rating or combinaton of weapon skills...unless the NPC's are given a specific rating for their level, then how would their AR be determined?

Let's say that if mobs were given set AR values....then that would likely mean that due to the varying levels of mobs, each AR of each mob of the same type (or within a small level range) would have to be different to account for their level. Your not gonna give a level 100 borg 1000 AR and a level 200 borg 1000 AR (unless some other NPC specific combat routines exist for altering the amount of damage and hit miss chance NPC's do).....that level 200 borg may have 3000 AR or more....all the borgs inbetween would scale from 1000 to 3000 or some variation yet still scaling upwards to account for better combat effectiveness as level goes up. In theory, each level of a mob has a different AR and that works just like players weapon skills when you think about it.

A player may be able to raise his MA skill from 300 to 305 at his current level and on his next level up he could raise it from 305 to 310....that would be the same effectiveness as the borg example above...your level determines your MA skill max effectiveness....that MA rating (being your primary skill) determines your AR. So in essence, the pets AR scales and is no different than your MA skill....about the only difference then would be if the devs actually use a MA skill for the pet or just a flat AR value that scales and can't be affected by MA buffs....such as a simple AR value or AAO value.

Bottom line, the players have no idea at all which is the case...so this is why I say what I say about continuing to use those various buffs that players are not sure of and if they work or not.


The fact that we do know that pet's must have AC values (because of how trimmers work....the fact that we know pets and NPC's do have run speed, initiatives, nano resistance (every nano checks against it), psychic/psychology (because the game does check if the mob is in range for you to be successful for charms/calms and even information tools), then there is perception (mobs detect us), conceal (shadows hiding from us in COH)..and so on. You could also assume that if mobs have a psychic value, why not an intelligence value...what about an agility value?

So aparently the NPC's in the game do have a number of the very same skills as we the players do....so logically speaking, it wouldn't be far fetched to assume that they "MAY" indeed have even more combat skills that we have....exactly which ones is the mystery we have here.

I guess what I'm mostly trying to say is just because we don't have hardcore evidence of something existing doesn't mean it doesn't exist. So we may not understand why NPC's need combat skills...but nobody said they need them, but if a developer decided it would be easier to use them instead of make a whole new type of stat rating (extra stuff to have to maintain) or another subroutine or two to manage how that new stat rating works verse players...oh and even verse other NPC's since crats and traders can use mobs against each other.

So again, unless a dev steps up and says that they do not use all combat skills but only certain skills (like the ones we know are already in use on NPC's) then why should I or anyone else assume they aren't being used. To believe they are won't hurt anyone unless doing so creates an unknown bug that somehow lowers pet effectiveness or something...but I've seen no evidence to support either belief that NPC's do have or don't have combat skills such as MA, Rifle or such..

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Post by Vabla » Thu Jun 12, 2008 4:32 am

BigMx, all of your points are just speculation. The whole "mobs are like players" thing is because the mobs have to fall within the mechanics of the game.

Zoning or no zoning, the MA general buff should have at LEAST increased the AR of the bot and in turn it's damage if it was affecting anything. Could be that the mobs actually have the skills but they simply aren't used in the calculations.
And take a look at auno.org for monster weapons. All of them use MA as their attack skill no matter if it's a ranged attack or not. And as a any good rule needs an exception there is one. Some of spirit weapons seem to use psychic as their attack skill what could mean that mobs have only psychic stat.

Pet run speed is slightly larger than it's master's run speed was when the pet was summoned. If you summon your pet and then get GSF you'll easily outrun your pet. If you get GSF and THEN summon your pet it'll manage to keep up with you.

Oh and pets aren't players controlled by AI. They are mobs controlled by a modified AI. Interesting thing is that normal pets have their own AI while charms get their AI modified for the duration of the charm. It's pretty clear if you've ever seen a widowmaker nuke/heal or observed how crat charms have a hate list and social aggro.
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