14 froob enfo twink?

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14 froob enfo twink?

Post by rayje » Sat Aug 14, 2010 6:47 pm

ok, so here i go (yes i know, "again!?")...

this time i intend to make a 14 enfo twink, mainly because well frankly i know pretty much anything 21+ (next twink lvl) can use a neleb rod, and entirely too many people are using them so i would like to do something different (and i doubt i could get the FA req at 14 anyway)...
the goal is going to be for messin around and dueling but needs to also be solid for towers...

so to start with, i need s little help deciding on a weapon and a breed.
-weapon(s)-
basically as i see it the weapon choices are:
frosty: i like it simply because of the fact that it looks awesome, and the consistent damage it can put out far outweighs the drawback of it's speed (which won't matter much after imping and IPing melee init) overall solid weapon and has fast attack (more specials=better imo)...

cold morning: i have one, and i honestly like it because of it's melee init and max hp mod, and the fact that it has FA, brawl, and dimach- 2 of which are physical abilities of the character, not abilities of the weapon (pretty sure that means if the wep is OE those abilities aren't reduced) which i think can provide for a quick alpha kill, not to mention brawl and i think dimach have a chance to stun.

dual howlings: not sure how the damage would be on these, but being their default speed is 1/1 i figured they would be pretty good, but again no specials besides FA...

dualing lamentation / woe : not actually sure if this is possible at this lvl, the MM req is the same as howlings, but the FA is as steep as nelebs and the 1hb is a little insane, and it only has fast attack but they have a nifty +15 hp each mod... (just a thought)

brainchopper: mused about this for lolz, initially i considered this but figured that cold morning was allot better because this has a bit less max dmg and only has brawl (but is a nice special that doesn't OE with your weapon). i initially wanted to use it on a 14 NM enfo because of the already high possible intel/psy trickles and the fact of it's proc and brawl (being a special easy to get real high damage out of)...all in all not a terrible weapon, but not a spectacular one either.

-breed-
basically, everyone makes enfos atrox so i wanted to use one of the other 3 breeds to have something slightly unique.

nanomage: well, they can allow for some pretty nice intel twinking for big trickle to treat and CL via shades of lucubration. they can also yield higher nano skills for better self buffs, but overall will suffer on HP and weapon skills (only by a little). (has it's interesting elements, and could be pretty decent)

opifex: no particular bonus to anything except treat and evasion which is useless for enfo. they will suffer on HP and not really gain/lose anything special in casting and weapon skills. ( i like this one least for this)

solitus: i like the fact that everything on solitus is even all around, and having seen in my nano nanny and auno that some of the pivotal implants are going to have to be agility based (no way around it) i have a good feeling about soli. i also like the fact they are pretty solid on HP, casting, and weapon skills all around. (i like this one best thus far)
"our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising each time we fall" -confucius
"the only way evil succeedes is when good men sit back and do nothing"
"to really live, you must first be truly ready to die"
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Re: 14 froob enfo twink?

Post by Lassssi » Sun Aug 15, 2010 4:30 am

Some contradicting opinions (which of course could be wrong)

Weapons:

It is possible to get neleb on. Not sure if would be 50% or 75% without osb. Nevertheless, even it was 50%
I still think it would be better than other options. In tower wars you can always get brutal thug from somene
which should make it 75%

Nanomage:
Haven't made calculations, but if it's possible to be able to cast rage at this lvl (in tower wars with osb for sure it is).
Then nanomage could be an interesting choice. Nm should maybe also have easiest time equipping 5 slot belt.(Guess it could be possible with
some halloween phats? comments from anyone who has tried?

Opifex:
Most implants can be made based on agi/sense, so this is the obvious implant-lover choice.

Solitus:
No advantages to any side. Would consider inferior to opi/nm.

-> Maybe a optimal build could be nm/opi(/trox) enfo with 4/5-slot belt & neleb. Possibly rage..at least in tower wars.

-> For those who don't want to work too much on the twink: opi/trox, 4 slotter, icebreaker or dual piercing from Som (whatever the weapon name was)
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Re: 14 froob enfo twink?

Post by rayje » Sun Aug 15, 2010 9:04 pm

Lassssi wrote: Weapons:

It is possible to get neleb on. Not sure if would be 50% or 75% without osb. Nevertheless, even it was 50%
I still think it would be better than other options. In tower wars you can always get brutal thug from somene
which should make it 75%

Nanomage:
Haven't made calculations, but if it's possible to be able to cast rage at this lvl (in tower wars with osb for sure it is).
Then nanomage could be an interesting choice. Nm should maybe also have easiest time equipping 5 slot belt.(Guess it could be possible with
some halloween phats? comments from anyone who has tried?

Opifex:
Most implants can be made based on agi/sense, so this is the obvious implant-lover choice.

Solitus:
No advantages to any side. Would consider inferior to opi/nm.

-> Maybe a optimal build could be nm/opi(/trox) enfo with 4/5-slot belt & neleb. Possibly rage..at least in tower wars.

-> For those who don't want to work too much on the twink: opi/trox, 4 slotter, icebreaker or dual piercing from Som (whatever the weapon name was)
well, i have done the calcs a few times and no matter what the way it looks is that i would only just barely have the FA req for frosty (including trickle), so i can't be made to believe that the rod is possible at 14 as a froob. i know for sure it's not possible for a 5 slot belt for froob that lvl, it seems like what you are envisioning as a setup is only really possible paid because of FA and CL amounts needed for this stuff (yes, at absolute best).
without paid stuff that buffs FA and huge amounts of CL, the rod and 5 slot might be possible but only with halloween phats or something froobable that i have never heard of (and i know just about everything that's usable for froobs). problem being even if i got the rod on is the OE of course.

NM: yeh being able to rage at that lvl would be a good reason to use this breed, but not sure if it would do the trick. however FA is dependent solely on agility which would take a hit, as would 2hb/2he which are largely dependent on strength so i'm still a bit on the fence with this one.

opi: yeh i get the implant advantage (also that their higher agil/sense max makes for bigger trickle to treat), but i don't like it mainly because it offers nothing else of value to enfo proff and even takes a hit on HP via BD and stam.

solitus: well while it doesn't have any advantages, it also lacks disadvantages which is it's main strength. so i actually see this as superior to the other breeds (on par with atrox) for this proff.

and yea, dual fear forged blades was another weapon i was thinking about but forgot to mention. i really like them actually just for the fact that they each buff 20 piercing and the other reqs are easy to get, so they can definitely be 100% at 14 froob. i like their speed, and their damage can only really be stacked against the rod or maybe the frosty but it's the only one of the 3 that can be 100% that low and they even have a DOT proc. the only thing i don't like about them is that their specials are FA and sneak, both of which become garbage after you get drained (once even) and they would be allot better in my eyes if they had either brawl or dimach instead of probably sneak (since both specials are damage only and get no secondary effect chance).
"our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising each time we fall" -confucius
"the only way evil succeedes is when good men sit back and do nothing"
"to really live, you must first be truly ready to die"
"the greatest thing you will ever learn is just to love, and be loved in return"
<(-'.'-)> Q(-'.'-Q) <(-'.'-<) (>-'.'-)> O==(-.-Q) t(-'.'-t)
-When God said, "Let there be light", Chuck Norris said, "say please."
-When the Boogeyman goes to sleep every night he checks his closet for Chuck Norris.
-underneath Chuck Norris' beard, there's no chin- only another fist.

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Re: 14 froob enfo twink?

Post by Lassssi » Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:13 am

rayje wrote: well, i have done the calcs a few times and no matter what the way it looks is that i would only just barely have the FA req for frosty (including trickle), so i can't be made to believe that the rod is possible at 14 as a froob. i know for sure it's not possible for a 5 slot belt for froob that lvl, it seems like what you are envisioning as a setup is only really possible paid because of FA and CL amounts needed for this stuff (yes, at absolute best).
without paid stuff that buffs FA and huge amounts of CL, the rod and 5 slot might be possible but only with halloween phats or something froobable that i have never heard of (and i know just about everything that's usable for froobs). problem being even if i got the rod on is the OE of course.
If you search a bit from these forums you can find a reference (opi) lvl 14 trader build with neleb. At lvl 14 being trader does not really offer any much twinking help, maybe few points in treatment and few in sense. You can also notice that the reference build does not include any agi/sense/fa armor which means that it should be relatively easy to get ~5-7 more points of fast attack with some equipment. Also it does not include any agi in leg/feet imps. Considering all this I'm led to believe that neleb can be equipped by lvl 13 enfo, and with halloween items, lvl 12 enfo. (And most likely lvl 11 enfo, but that would mean equipping neleb when waist & chest also have sense, agi in them, forcing the real imps to be slightly lower.
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Re: 14 froob enfo twink?

Post by rayje » Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:05 am

Lassssi wrote:
rayje wrote: well, i have done the calcs a few times and no matter what the way it looks is that i would only just barely have the FA req for frosty (including trickle), so i can't be made to believe that the rod is possible at 14 as a froob. i know for sure it's not possible for a 5 slot belt for froob that lvl, it seems like what you are envisioning as a setup is only really possible paid because of FA and CL amounts needed for this stuff (yes, at absolute best).
without paid stuff that buffs FA and huge amounts of CL, the rod and 5 slot might be possible but only with halloween phats or something froobable that i have never heard of (and i know just about everything that's usable for froobs). problem being even if i got the rod on is the OE of course.
If you search a bit from these forums you can find a reference (opi) lvl 14 trader build with neleb. At lvl 14 being trader does not really offer any much twinking help, maybe few points in treatment and few in sense. You can also notice that the reference build does not include any agi/sense/fa armor which means that it should be relatively easy to get ~5-7 more points of fast attack with some equipment. Also it does not include any agi in leg/feet imps. Considering all this I'm led to believe that neleb can be equipped by lvl 13 enfo, and with halloween items, lvl 12 enfo. (And most likely lvl 11 enfo, but that would mean equipping neleb when waist & chest also have sense, agi in them, forcing the real imps to be slightly lower.
yea that last part is what i was thinking, it might be possible with all the agil imps in for big amounts of trickle but i don't think taking a hit on the ql of the final implants would be worth it.
also remember that traders have a little easier of a time since they can handle a hit on the 2hb implants because drains will compensate, and being opi makes for a little more agil trickle for that job.
again though, even if i slap that thing on i'm not a trader (so no drains) so i couldn't get it 100% and honestly to me it's not worth it if i can't at least self it 75%.

so as an update, seems like the weapon options are: frosty, cold morning, dual fear forged, and dual howling skulls.
and the breed is narrowed down to either soli or NM i think.
"our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising each time we fall" -confucius
"the only way evil succeedes is when good men sit back and do nothing"
"to really live, you must first be truly ready to die"
"the greatest thing you will ever learn is just to love, and be loved in return"
<(-'.'-)> Q(-'.'-Q) <(-'.'-<) (>-'.'-)> O==(-.-Q) t(-'.'-t)
-When God said, "Let there be light", Chuck Norris said, "say please."
-When the Boogeyman goes to sleep every night he checks his closet for Chuck Norris.
-underneath Chuck Norris' beard, there's no chin- only another fist.

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Re: 14 froob enfo twink?

Post by Martialenfo » Mon Aug 16, 2010 3:56 pm

Neleb's rod is certainly doable on a 14 enforcer, and also can be 75%+ selfed, 100% OBd. It's most likely your best choice, I would also vote for nm, but getting rage is quite a bit harder.. I did it at 16 on a nm with 75 nano skill imps notum splice and Shades. But can probably be done at 14 with Filligrees, omni special issue executive suit and/or higher imps and will have to be NM.

FFB are the other option, only point in using this is duels, using Blessed with thunder and flower of life to give you an edge.
Frosty is too slow.
Icebreaker is fairly gimp compared to nelebs, no nano drain, slower fast attack.. Higher crits and a higher alpha is the only bonus.
Howling skulls: Just NO! Absolutely awful weapon.

Solitus is pointless it has almost no use in twinking as you're mainly min-maxing. If youre not going rage so you don't need to be nm, trox is the way to go.

Basically, FFB on a nm with rage is probably what I'd choose for selfed pvp. Rage and melee init going fairly far DEF (about half or more) would be great against the masses of traders. The lower hp can be made up for with the flower of life and healing spam if ya cast enough Nelebs rod is more for towers to try run ppl out of nano and with BT you get it 100% so pretty good damage. If you don't think you can squeeze rage, then go trox for the obvious, higher hp.

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Re: 14 froob enfo twink?

Post by rayje » Mon Aug 16, 2010 6:12 pm

Martialenfo wrote:Neleb's rod is certainly doable on a 14 enforcer, and also can be 75%+ selfed, 100% OBd. It's most likely your best choice, I would also vote for nm, but getting rage is quite a bit harder.. I did it at 16 on a nm with 75 nano skill imps notum splice and Shades. But can probably be done at 14 with Filligrees, omni special issue executive suit and/or higher imps and will have to be NM.

FFB are the other option, only point in using this is duels, using Blessed with thunder and flower of life to give you an edge.
Frosty is too slow.
Icebreaker is fairly gimp compared to nelebs, no nano drain, slower fast attack.. Higher crits and a higher alpha is the only bonus.
Howling skulls: Just NO! Absolutely awful weapon.

Solitus is pointless it has almost no use in twinking as you're mainly min-maxing. If youre not going rage so you don't need to be nm, trox is the way to go.

Basically, FFB on a nm with rage is probably what I'd choose for selfed pvp. Rage and melee init going fairly far DEF (about half or more) would be great against the masses of traders. The lower hp can be made up for with the flower of life and healing spam if ya cast enough Nelebs rod is more for towers to try run ppl out of nano and with BT you get it 100% so pretty good damage. If you don't think you can squeeze rage, then go trox for the obvious, higher hp.
you... really think it's doable that low? (the rod) and that i can self it well enough to actually hit anyone? (i'm still doubtful)
i honestly don't know if i want to do FFBs because (as you stated) they pretty well suck for anything but duels.
i get frosty being slow, because of that and the fact that it only has FA i suppose if i was going to use it i would do it on a 21+ so i could get it 100% selfed.
i also get your assessment of howlings, was never entirely fond of them, but they were a slight thought...
i respectfully disagree with your opinion of CM, i think the crit and alpha potential would be well worth it, since i think i can get the special skills high enough to do really nice damage, and have it selfed 100%. so IMO it's pretty much down to either CM or rod...
i suppose i can agree with your reasoning about soli breed... i don't know, i might still try it just to see what happens.
"our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising each time we fall" -confucius
"the only way evil succeedes is when good men sit back and do nothing"
"to really live, you must first be truly ready to die"
"the greatest thing you will ever learn is just to love, and be loved in return"
<(-'.'-)> Q(-'.'-Q) <(-'.'-<) (>-'.'-)> O==(-.-Q) t(-'.'-t)
-When God said, "Let there be light", Chuck Norris said, "say please."
-When the Boogeyman goes to sleep every night he checks his closet for Chuck Norris.
-underneath Chuck Norris' beard, there's no chin- only another fist.

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Re: 14 froob enfo twink?

Post by dredd » Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:58 pm

What he said :)... Rod is definitely doable at 14. This is a setup for my lvl 10 Froob Enf with Neleb's Rod http://auno.org/ao/equip.php?saveid=125482" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. It's a really basic setup- barely finished actually- some empty slots for wrists and ring :). Something like that will get you to 75% self and 100% with Brutal Thug. Make note of the gloves- they give 2hb and FA. Treat them like baby-Legchoppers and go as high as you can if you think you'll be short in Fast Attack. Twink them on when your str/stam is at its highest and leave them on for the rest of the twink job. The good news if you're undecided between Icebreaker and Rod is that your implant setup will basically be the same so you could switch back and forth and try out both. The Rod is really too good not to use. The Rod at 75% will still OD the Icebreaker, or be very close, plus you have the option of grabbing BT and some OBs and heading off to towers at 100% for some extra damage.

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Re: 14 froob enfo twink?

Post by rayje » Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:10 pm

dredd wrote:What he said :)... Rod is definitely doable at 14. This is a setup for my lvl 10 Froob Enf with Neleb's Rod http://auno.org/ao/equip.php?saveid=125482" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. It's a really basic setup- barely finished actually- some empty slots for wrists and ring :). Something like that will get you to 75% self and 100% with Brutal Thug. Make note of the gloves- they give 2hb and FA. Treat them like baby-Legchoppers and go as high as you can if you think you'll be short in Fast Attack. Twink them on when your str/stam is at its highest and leave them on for the rest of the twink job. The good news if you're undecided between Icebreaker and Rod is that your implant setup will basically be the same so you could switch back and forth and try out both. The Rod is really too good not to use. The Rod at 75% will still OD the Icebreaker, or be very close, plus you have the option of grabbing BT and some OBs and heading off to towers at 100% for some extra damage.
but... lol i can't do any of the crap you do... i don't think most people can... cuz simply put, you're a twinking god (although everything i've learned has been based on research of you).

like i just don't think i could figure out how to do 90 implants and such high ql stuff on a lvl 10... like, ever...
anyway, no matter how i do my calcs i just can't figure out how to make rod or even frosty happen at 14, so someone would have to explain it to me... i don't expect that, but i don't know any other way to put it.
i just have no idea what i am missing here (i have included things like rhinoman, but only as high as about 80 implants since that's the highest i have ever been able to do on a 14), however i was trying to be able to keep the matter creation cluster in right hand if i was going CMI since i could do without it.
"our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising each time we fall" -confucius
"the only way evil succeedes is when good men sit back and do nothing"
"to really live, you must first be truly ready to die"
"the greatest thing you will ever learn is just to love, and be loved in return"
<(-'.'-)> Q(-'.'-Q) <(-'.'-<) (>-'.'-)> O==(-.-Q) t(-'.'-t)
-When God said, "Let there be light", Chuck Norris said, "say please."
-When the Boogeyman goes to sleep every night he checks his closet for Chuck Norris.
-underneath Chuck Norris' beard, there's no chin- only another fist.

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Re: 14 froob enfo twink?

Post by dredd » Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:09 pm

Thanks for the compliment- I still have lots to learn from others who are twinking experts in their own right :). I think you're on the right track. QL80 imps at lvl 14 is a very solid twink. I'd just do the setup for Icebreaker, and if it turns out you have enough skills for the Rod, then throw it on and see how it hits. I think you'll be close at lvl 14 with 80 imps and some Rhinoman.

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Re: 14 froob enfo twink?

Post by rayje » Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:00 am

dredd wrote:Thanks for the compliment- I still have lots to learn from others who are twinking experts in their own right :). I think you're on the right track. QL80 imps at lvl 14 is a very solid twink. I'd just do the setup for Icebreaker, and if it turns out you have enough skills for the Rod, then throw it on and see how it hits. I think you'll be close at lvl 14 with 80 imps and some Rhinoman.
well the issue for me was that since i would need mass amounts of trickle to get the FA req even with rhino and everything else, that i didn't want to try for rod that lvl if it meant my last few final imps would have to be way lower (no agil rifle/polys in hand). however i did the calcs yesterday, and i figure that if i do my planned imp layout for 2he along with rhino and the rest of a suit of kirch kevlar i could trickle enough FA for frosty... i am still on the fence about it though since frosty would more than likely be 75% oe selfed, and at 100% CMI could be doing about the same damage but not the same every hit (but it has the extra specials). i will decide soon and probably report back on here what happens.

thanks everyone for the help and suggestions!
"our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising each time we fall" -confucius
"the only way evil succeedes is when good men sit back and do nothing"
"to really live, you must first be truly ready to die"
"the greatest thing you will ever learn is just to love, and be loved in return"
<(-'.'-)> Q(-'.'-Q) <(-'.'-<) (>-'.'-)> O==(-.-Q) t(-'.'-t)
-When God said, "Let there be light", Chuck Norris said, "say please."
-When the Boogeyman goes to sleep every night he checks his closet for Chuck Norris.
-underneath Chuck Norris' beard, there's no chin- only another fist.

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Re: 14 froob enfo twink?

Post by Martialenfo » Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:34 am

If you're serious on going towers, i would really recommend aiming for rod. Because as dredd said even if you don't reach it you can rest back on the icebreaker. With BT, you'll have the most DPS of any weapon you can find on full-agg, topped with nano drain so you won't run out unless you're against another rod user. FFB are good in duels/selfed pvp/and some of the best PvM DPS you can get as theyre consistant, but at towers they lack burst damage from flurry and the nano drain which hurts.. The main advantage you get is the use of BT at towers, keeping you at high damage or above OE to their first drain (on icebreaker) and the second drain is normally harder to land with that 190% check which buys time.

I learnt a fair bit from dredd on the lines of twinking (you should try bug him for some private lessons haha :) ). I was never the best with imps, but ive got better over the years.. I mainly worked on the design of the characters which seemed to give me an edge although didn't always go to plan.

And how are you doing btw dredd? :D you always just seem to vanish after i see you online.

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Re: 14 froob enfo twink?

Post by Goldberg » Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:46 pm

i wouldnt take a froob enfo at level 14 t towers.... it has zero chance against traders.
i would make a trader or an Engi with some severe pet and AS weapon.

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Re: 14 froob enfo twink?

Post by rayje » Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:07 pm

Goldberg wrote:i wouldnt take a froob enfo at level 14 t towers.... it has zero chance against traders.
i would make a trader or an Engi with some severe pet and AS weapon.
you're... kidding... right?
i take it you don't pvp, because if you did you would know that enfos are the only thing that has good game against traders.
engi? really? *drain* oh the pet is OE now so it stopped attacking, and the trader kills you...
trader vs trader they each land the first drain on each other, then they sit there shooting at each other and whoever has the better wep wins.
or.... you're an enfo, in which case you bull rush the trader, and pop flurry and specials and he is forced into a fight or flight position. usually you are able to kill them so quick they don't have a chance to do anything but run in the hope of living long enough to drain, but if you have a root graft you pop it and they die (or you chase and kill them anyway).
"our greatest glory is not in never falling, but rising each time we fall" -confucius
"the only way evil succeedes is when good men sit back and do nothing"
"to really live, you must first be truly ready to die"
"the greatest thing you will ever learn is just to love, and be loved in return"
<(-'.'-)> Q(-'.'-Q) <(-'.'-<) (>-'.'-)> O==(-.-Q) t(-'.'-t)
-When God said, "Let there be light", Chuck Norris said, "say please."
-When the Boogeyman goes to sleep every night he checks his closet for Chuck Norris.
-underneath Chuck Norris' beard, there's no chin- only another fist.

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Re: 14 froob enfo twink?

Post by Goldberg » Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:55 pm

i've probably done more towers then you during the last 5 years :oops: and i can tell you this : level 14 enf simply lacks ncu to stack enough buffs to deal with a trader... at those levels it only boils down to ncus and that's it. (unless you count clueless players to defend their towers or ninjaing towers at dead ours)
as for an engi, pop the highest possible pet (perfected gladiatorbot is doable at 14) so the pet will kill the tower fast enough before defenders showing up, faster then an enfo thats for sure. (instead of AS weapon, maybe a red line + Sol-k combo will add some nice dmg there too)
but gl with your enfo in towers, just hope you it wont show-up in our tower fields. :wink:

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