The Non-Kiting NT Experiment

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The Non-Kiting NT Experiment

Post by Tarradax » Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:43 am

The horror, the horror!

Apparently, it IS possible for a NT to solo without kiting. And mobs in the orange-ish variety, too. The process is pretty annoying, long and you only get 1 dead mob (Or sometimes 1 dead NT, hehe) in the time you could get a nice 20-30 mob kite smacked. Still, it was an entertaining exercise... One that I hope I won't have to repeat. EVER. Or at least until TL7.

Sidenote: My NT isn't fr00b, so no weapons and a few symbs instead of imps. She's Opi, was 155 when doing this and didn't max Body Dev so only about 4k HP. Oh, and the whole purpose of this was to see if this toon can actually solo something without resorting to the ol' Headless Chicken Running Circles routine... Anyway, onwards!

The setup:
Nothing too fancy. Mostly QL200 implants with a few symbs (Head and RArm), tripled-implanted AllDef and Nanodelta implants too. Armor consisting of QL230-250 Miy's Nano and a Combined Officer chest (+21 nanoskills), Collar Casero instead of token board (Yay Neutral!) and a pair of VTEs. Like I said, nothing really fancy. Should get to 174 and farm some OFAB eventually, but mweh. I like Miy's.

Total Nanoinit is ~1600 static (6.75 cast time reduction, I'm going to be referring to it as 6s reduction since everything is done at full DEF) with it going higher when a proc/perk activate but I'm not going to count those in since it's unreliable and not permanent... And with both active it's still only about ~250pts bonus.

All 4 evade skills obviously maxed.

Apart from that all the RK buff nanos uploaded, nanocost breed-capped and obviously, self-buffed only.

The Zone:
Scheol, which would be the 3rd Shadowlands zone after Elysium. Mobs are in the 120-160 level range mostly, almost all of them are social and some are excessively nasty for their level (It's fun when a pale-green mob that's 30 levels below you can still slap you for 1.2k damage and it's not a crit). The important thing is that the area is (Mostly) open spaces with enough room to maneuver so if things go sideways rooting/calming and running like a wuss is always an option.

The toolkit:
Obviously, Nullity Sphere 2. Before this experiment, I've used it MAYBE 10 times total... During this experiment though, it's seen some use. Although still not much, it's nice to have and has direct effect on DPS. You'll see why soon enough.

This next part is a bit painful. NTs have a pretty nice Crowd Control toolkit which does wonders in team mishes or RK in general. In SL though, it's... Less than optimal. For example, I can easily cast Burden of Atlas, but since SL mobs have a nasty innate resistance to RK-based CC nanos I'm forced to use Specialized Gravity Pull - Lasting 2 minutes less and is more likely to break.

Same for calms, instead of Peaceful Intentions which has a 7m31s duration and a 110% NR check, I'm forced to use Specialized Project Calm which has a mere 1m55s duration and a 230% NR check. Grumble.

Also since I have to wear the Cyberdeck to cast anything, no weapons at all... Which means I can't even equip something for a fast fling/burst/whatever between nukes. Soloing would've gone much easier if I could open up with a nice alpha or have some silly special for those times where a mob has just a tiny bit of health left but I still need to cast a full nuke to down it... Which brings me to the next point.

Nukes:
There's a whole lot to be said in favour of IEF. This nano is my makeshift Fling Shot (And after speaking to some old-timey 220 NTs I get the idea that IEF sees use all the way up to TL7). Bonus points for having a high minimum damage and 98% NR check, which I guess explains WHY it still sees use in TL7 (The first SL nuke to have a higher min damage is capped to level 195+ and has a 9.9s cast time).

And of course, the main offense nuke - Biomolecular Corrosion. With my inits and full DEF, this is a 2.5s cast + 1s charge so a 3.5s attack cycle. Slightly faster than 1s cast on IEF and waiting for the 4.8s charge, but only starts making a difference after a while (On shorter fights, IEF still wins by virtue of min damage).

The Process! (Dun dun duuuuuuun!)
My base assumption revolved around two ideas. Idea #1 being the simple "Root, Run, Nuke, Repeat". Everyone knows it, a lot of profs practice it, seems easy enough and HEY! The landscape is conductive to it with plenty of space to run around in. Downside is that since it's Scheol and I'm not an advy, I got no map of the area. It's fun to accidentally back away into a Heckler and get WTFPWND in two hits... No, not really.

Thus Method #2 was born... Tanking mobs face-to-face. On a NT. Without even having maxed Body Dev. And being Opi. Good times, good times.

Obviously, I tried #1 first. Considering my NT is optimized for just about anything she's supposed to do, maxed RS is part of the package. Eventually I gave up on it though - Moving back and re-rooting every 3-4 nukes on average gets tiresome really fast - Especially if mobs counter the root. That, together with terrain irregularities and a lack of minimap pretty much scrapped this method entirely leaving me with....

Method #2. Which, shockingly, worked amazingly well. Tried it on several Caterwauling Minx mobs (Anyone with SL will attest to the nature of these overpowered for their level bastards), tried it on some sided mobs, tried it on a few Kinetic Aggressors (Mini VH, nasty hitters with a bunch of HP) and a few regular ol' X'Rash types (Valirash, Gluarash, you get the idea).

And last, just because it worked better for me might not hold true for you. Grain of salt, use proper judgment, yadda yadda.

Method #2
First up, extra gear. Taking on mobs with melee range means you might want to consider swapping an NCU Coolant Sink - This goes into Deck 4, but shrinks available NCU. Still, selfbuffed I had enough NCU so I swapped this thing on. I then swapped it out since it wasn't very useful in my approach, so as before - Your mileage may vary.

Now, the actual killing part:
0. Make sure Fortification and Layers are up.

1. Pulling with a root. If there's any other mobs in the area, pull with a calm instead (And then root but not the target you've just calmed but the additional mob. Calm extras, you're not an enfo. You can't take a few at once).

2. Blind. This is VERY IMPORTANT. Visions of The Void is -244 AllOff, combined with triple-implanted QL200 AllDef and maxed evades this makes for one hard-to-hit NT.

3. Nuke.

4. Root will break, mob will come at you. Keep nuking.

5. Keep the mob blinded, recast layers if you take a hit too many.

6. Win!

Now this may seem all nice and straight-forward but what took me a while to figure out is the proper rhythm to cast it all... Onward to the last part, a whole bunch of numbers and how to make this work.

Visions of The Void: Instacast, 1.48s Charge, Lasts 25s.
Advanced Fleeting Immunity: 1s Cast, 4.63s Recharge, Duration is irrelevant.
Izgimmer's Enveloping Flame (IEF): 1s Cast, 4.8s Recharge. 5.8s Total Attack Cycle.
Biomolecular Corrosion (BC): 2.5s Cast, 1s Recharge. 3.5s Total Attack Cycle.

The execution attack cycle, then:
Blind cast. 23.5 seconds left.
Nuking proceeds. 3.5s per BC which means ideally 6 casts. Average damage per casting is 2783.5, at 6 hits that's 16701 damage and 2.5 seconds left.
Alternatively, IEF: 5.8s per IEF which means 4 casts. Average damage per casting is 2661.5, at 3 hits that's 10646 damage and 0.3s left.
Blind and the timer starts over.

Rinse and repeat... Almost. The only part left is to factor in your staying power: Adv. Fleeting Immunity can soak up 834 damage in exchange for reducing your damage cycle by 5.63 seconds. First aid can help regain HP but won't refresh layers and costs no time, but can only be used once every 40 seconds. So if the mob in question hits for 600-800 damage each time with a decent hit-rate on you despite blind and full DEF, you'll either A. Need a whole lot of time to solo it since you'll have to refresh layers constantly or B. Resort to Method #1.

Consider your max HP as another resource: With 4k HP against a mob that hits for 799 damage, I can last for 6 hits (Including Layers) and remain alive with a handful of HPs left. Assuming I can kill the mob in a few casts (Here comes the functionality of IEF as a fast-casting nuke to finish something off), layers can be delayed... A little.

Nullity Sphere I / II
I'll say it outright: I am not a fan of NS. There, I said it. Still, when you've set a goal of standing still face-to-face with a mob, NS2 is a wonderful toy - We're looking at 17 seconds of Godmode, followed by 43 seconds of downtime which can be followed again by 17 seconds et cetera.

If you have NS2 uploaded, then you could alter the attack cycle to something a little different:
Blind cast. 23.5 seconds left.
Nuking proceeds. 3.5s per BC which means 6 casts. Average damage per casting is 2783.5, at 6 hits that's 16701 damage and 2.5 seconds left on the blind.
Alternatively, IEF: 5.8s per IEF which means 4 casts. Average damage per casting is 2661.5, at 4 hits that's 10646 damage and 0.3s left on the blind.
Cast NS2: Blind has expired but you're not going to care about that. 17s of NS2 remaining.
Nuking again. BC at 3.5s per cast gives you 4 additional attacks for average damage of 11134. 2s of NS2 left.
Alternatively, IEF at 5.8s per cast gives you 2 additional attacks for average damage of 5323. 5.4s of NS2 left. If you're feeling lucky, you can still fire off a 3rd IEF and be completely vulnerable for half a second. Odds are, you'll be fine - The extra hit will be soaked into previously-existing layers or HP. Unless it's a crit, you've lost layers earlier and you'll be 1-shotted. But you'll probably be fine. Honest.
Recast Layers. NS2 expires. Recast blind. Start over.

Conclusion:
My results shocked even me. I was dead-sure that there's no chance in hell my little Opi NT can solo an SL mob of equal level without kiting/rooting/using range. And without maxing HP even. Well, I'm happy to be wrong on this and thought I'll share my discoveries with everyone... There might be a "Part 2: Happythought Does Rubi-Ka Mishes" where the constraints of the corridors and small rooms pretty much kill off the rooting method, we'll see.

For now, these are just my observations (I actually did the cast times math on a piece of paper during my running around Scheol...). Feel free to try, add your own or completely ignore this thread and go kite something.
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Tarradax
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Re: The Non-Kiting NT Experiment

Post by Tarradax » Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:45 am

Maybe Part 2.
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Re: The Non-Kiting NT Experiment

Post by DocJones » Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:14 am

Awesome observations, Tarra! Not only a great fixer, but a great gimpy NT, as well :)

*two thumbs*

However, you should try reroll a froobie NT and try this out on RK without sloob'ish gear. 1600+ Inits or QL230-250 Miy's are simply not possible at that level for a froob (well - at least the init isn't).

Reading your numbercrunshing approach, i consider developing an AutoHotKey Macro with your Methods, just to "stress-test" it a bit ;) would be nice as an NT to q-/afk nuke away ;)
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Re: The Non-Kiting NT Experiment

Post by twoshots » Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:47 am

I have a TL3 atrox 2he NT with whom I never run. Most of the time I don't even root as I'm using a melee weapon anyway. Worked quite well so far. I keep meaning to go back and level further using some OSBs (essence and maybe even MC buffage), everything so far has been self-buffed. I also need to equip Legchoppers and a 6-slot/recompiler and things should really improve. But to date it has been interesting...

Edit: Interestingly I just logged this alt and found 5m creds sat there that I had no idea I had. Thanks Tarra :laughing5:
Rolled a little alt on RK4. Just dinged level 1!
[unPaid]Reetzor 150/9 soli soldier, Hypocentre 131/3 soli NT, Didistick 112/2 opi kipur, Hypotheses 100/5 nano MP,
[unPaid]Yakovbok 57/2 opi fixer, Didisticks 50/2 opi MA, Wristflick 50/2 soli advy, Riddor 32/2 soli crat.
[Froob]Selzip 167 trox fixer, Selgran 111 trox enfo, Selrobi 108 nano NT, Selforms 100 trox crat, Selmedi 95 soli doc,
and far far too many other time/credit sinks that never made it out of TL1/2.

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Re: The Non-Kiting NT Experiment

Post by WorldTrader » Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:13 am

Funny how players create characters in pairs. Fixer-NT is a common one.

Anyhow- A HUGE CONGRATZ on the research. I've always thought that NTs should be a forced to be reckoned with from the get go. I used to have dreams of INSTAkilling mobs with one (or two) nukes.
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Re: The Non-Kiting NT Experiment

Post by DocJones » Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:25 am

Been once to IS 1st floor (as lowbie TL5ish NT) with two others. All had NS2 and IEF. Aggro juggling was really interessting and we pretty pwned the mobs there. Fezael is still smokin'...
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Re: The Non-Kiting NT Experiment

Post by Accomplice » Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:26 am

@Tarra: how do doubles/triples work in pvm? (well, pre-lvl165 LE nukes are garbage, I know).

How reliably can you evade sheol mobs? I heard that TL5 NTs can sit around 1.2k evades and 500+ AAD or so, so with stacked blinds (yes single and aoe blinds stack!) you should have quite good chances being unhittable?
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Re: The Non-Kiting NT Experiment

Post by Tarradax » Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:56 am

Accomplice wrote:@Tarra: how do doubles/triples work in pvm? (well, pre-lvl165 LE nukes are garbage, I know).

How reliably can you evade sheol mobs? I heard that TL5 NTs can sit around 1.2k evades and 500+ AAD or so, so with stacked blinds (yes single and aoe blinds stack!) you should have quite good chances being unhittable?
In PvM using Doubles/Triples has a bit of a drawback - It'll make casting NS impossible. Other than that, damage-wise they can be intersting - I've used them on more than one occasion during teammishes or IS runs where a mob uses TMS, so there's one use.

On raw damage output... Let's see. Taking the level 165+ LE nukes and assuming same setup as my NT, 6s cast time reduction at full DEF:
Notum Double: 4434 average damage, 5 seconds attack cycle, 885.8 DPS. 1212 Nanocost so that's an effectiveness of 1.368 nanopoints per damage point.
Notum Triple: 5145 average damage, 8 seconds attack cycle, 643 DPS. 1212 Nanocost so that's an effectiveness of 1.885 nanopoints per damage point.

For comparison, the 165 Cyberdeck Nuke:
Touch of Pyre: 3258.5 average damage, 3.9 seconds attack cycle, 835.5 DPS. 896 Nanocost so that's an effectiveness of 1.072 nanopoints per damage point.

So basically, the Notum Double has the highest DPS but Touch of Pyre has more bang for the nano you spend - Although the entire difference is 50DPS on average. Still, for soloing, I would use Touch of Pyre - The extra 50DPS aren't as important as the conserving 300 nano.

Oh, and forget about triples in PvM. They make awesome PvP booms to start with and push your target on the defensive ASAP, but overall they're not delivering sustainable damage.

As for the numbers you mention: This is an extreme setup, usually on 174 PvP twinks. It would require a set of Combined Scout to achieve a defensive setup such as this and yes, it IS possible. I've had the dubious pleasure of facing NTs like this in BS where the proceeded to eat my little soldier up in no-time flat.

And on evading Scheol mobs: Easy. During some fights I only got hit two-three times, so on some mobs I didn't even bother refreshing layers. There are still permanently-nasty mobs like the Minx mobs I've mentioned, but also Vortexoids and Mortiigs. They're just pumped up beyond what their level would suggest which makes it a poor indicator of their challenge rating.
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Re: The Non-Kiting NT Experiment

Post by ironox » Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:45 am

Accomplice wrote:@Tarra: how do doubles/triples work in pvm? (well, pre-lvl165 LE nukes are garbage, I know).

How reliably can you evade sheol mobs? I heard that TL5 NTs can sit around 1.2k evades and 500+ AAD or so, so with stacked blinds (yes single and aoe blinds stack!) you should have quite good chances being unhittable?
Single and area blinds stack!!!? Oh my... my lowbie NM NT thanks you from the bottom of his all too fragile heart, since he is currently tanking his way through RK missions.
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Re: The Non-Kiting NT Experiment

Post by EDTA » Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:31 pm

Single and AoE blinds don't stack! I just tested it. The AoE blinds upload 2 nanoprograms on your target: 1 is the real blind with the AOO debuff, the other is just a name and duration without any effect. When you cast it on yourself, you only get this last one. The part that blinds and debuffs does not stack with single blinds, the other part stacks with everything else: even with lower/higher ql of itself, but it has no effect anyway :P!
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Re: The Non-Kiting NT Experiment

Post by ironox » Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:45 pm

EDTA wrote:Single and AoE blinds don't stack! I just tested it. The AoE blinds upload 2 nanoprograms on your target: 1 is the real blind with the AOO debuff, the other is just a name and duration without any effect. When you cast it on yourself, you only get this last one. The part that blinds and debuffs does not stack with single blinds, the other part stacks with everything else: even with lower/higher ql of itself, but it has no effect anyway :P!
Drat! Thank you very much for crosschecking - I would have been spending a potentially fatal amount of time and nano double-casting them.
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Stupididea ("Party time! Have a blast.") Lvl 162 Shotgun NT
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Re: The Non-Kiting NT Experiment

Post by Accomplice » Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:58 am

Meh sorry for the misinfo. I just often see those 2 blind icons in my NCU when in BS and usually am too busy to check them both...
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Re: The Non-Kiting NT Experiment

Post by Goldberg » Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:29 am

Nt can defently level without kiting, i leveld a froob NT to 185 almost without kiting at all (missions and team missions) the only kiting i've done was to farm tokens ($$$).
NT enjoys the privilege of fighting full deff withoug hurting atteck skills *too much*, the variety of nukes allows to adjust yourself to your playstyle, with high enough inits switching full deff didnt botherd me at all, there are few tools that compliment defensive play style; Dark movment (+80 to all evades) and the blinds (-aao), slap in some aad imps, some evades boosting armor and your pritty much set, the only problem (which was a main issue for Solitus) was nano pool running out too fast, i had to adjust constantly using emergency kits, nano kits, notum splice, the +800 nano tatto (forgot the name)... the aad clusters conflicta with +nano delta...
Could stand toe to toe with orange mobs, 50-60% duration against red mobs at tl4 (ie level 120~ nt almost standing agains 180 mobs without running) NS2 and abs helped alot, defently was fun, but at TL5+ the deffesive effect started to fade off, especially in raids when i couldnt blind the mobs, and their huge AR ignored my deffenes easily, at TL5+ you have to feagure an alternative playstyle (im thinking to switch more aggresive style, aim for the highest dps nukes with Max Hp, hopefully last more then the mobs, i began to notice there are som nice +nano damage items that froob NT could use {wish they would add some jobe clusters for +nuke dmg and healing effcianty [-o< })...

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Re: The Non-Kiting NT Experiment

Post by TigerDragon » Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:21 am

The tattoo is "Notum Focus" http://auno.org/ao/db.php?id=158914" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I use this on my level 24 nanogimp piercing enforcer for a quick recharge of nanopool. Can't wear it at that level, but it can be right-click used at any level.
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Re: The Non-Kiting NT Experiment

Post by GDB2222 » Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:23 am

First of all, apologies for necro-ing this thread, but I found it really interesting.

Second, I have a kiting NT (just over lvl 150) but a strong need to do solo missions - Alien missions, to get alien levels. This is very annoying and frustrating. I'll kill a few mobs (slowly) then get killed by another one that's just a teeny bit stronger, so that's 5k AIXP lost. I'm just doing alien missions that are simply a doddle on a doc, a fixer, an agent even, and simply dying all the time.

Third, for a kiting NT, I took the view that there was no real point maxing evades. Frankly, if 20 hecklers 50 levels higher than you (or cyborgs) catch up with you you're toast regardless of your evades. For soloing, that all changes.

Much to think about.
Take it easy on the kid, SilverFox316; everybody kills Hitler on their first trip

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