Replacement for Ramorak's NT Nuke Tables

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Replacement for Ramorak's NT Nuke Tables

Post by Llie » Thu May 30, 2013 7:51 pm

I posted this to official forums, but I forgot that froobs can't all post/comment there, so I'm starting a thread here:

I missed Ramorak's Nuke Table and I got tired of hoping someone would find him to fix his site or that someone might find the time to put one up in its place, so I hacked something together by starting with Ramorak's Nuke Table page.

My calculations may be off. I don't have anywhere near as much experience with these calculations, but hopefully my results are more or less correct:

http://nano.exofire.net/nukes.html

or mirrored at

http://nano.byethost12.com/nukes.html

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Re: Replacement for Ramorak's NT Nuke Tables

Post by EDTA » Fri May 31, 2013 3:32 pm

Neat! I loved ramorak, good that you're trying to make it functional again :).

I don't know too much about these calculations so I can't really verify how correct it is. However, 2 things to make it better than the original Ramorak:
1. Nanoresist is not taken into account even though it plays an important role.
2. Somewhat recently, a patch changed it so that +damage also affects nukes. This could be taken into account.

Thanks a lot!

Edit: I see those points have already been adressed in the official forums, so nvm ;).
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Re: Replacement for Ramorak's NT Nuke Tables

Post by Llie » Sun Jun 02, 2013 8:03 pm

Honestly, I don't really know much about these calculations either. I sort of just thought about it like the "bucket with a hole in it under a tap" kind of math problem. As I mentioned in the official forum thread -- that's probably far too simplistic, as is my shortcut for computing all nukes do average damage (when in fact, my experience actually is something like "if you land a nuke, you always do minimal damage", but that might just be a froob thing).

As for including Target NR in my calculations, that's a complete mystery to me. If someone can point me to some information that would be useful. I know it has something to do with a nano's listed "Attack Skills" (which in the NT case is exclusively based on a percent of the MC skill) against the target's "Defense Skills" (which is always some percentage of nano resist).

So in the case of Resonance Blast, it's 100% of my MC skill against 101% the target's NR skill, whereas if I cast Ol' Faithful its 100% of my MC skill against 60% of the target's NR. That's fine and dandy, but how do I convert that into a "percentage of the time my nuke lands"?

Also, as it is, I'm already unsure how one determines what a mob or other player's AC is. I have no idea what a typical mob or other player's NR skill might be.

I'm not sure if nobody is really using my version of the nuke tables, because I haven't gotten much feedback. (I fixed one reported bug). If the only complaint is that I've left off NR and +damage in my calculations and I've overestimated the damage, I think that's not too shabby for a first cut -- unless nobody is using it, which would explain the lack of feedback.

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Re: Replacement for Ramorak's NT Nuke Tables

Post by EDTA » Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:20 am

Always doing minimum damage is an AC thing, I'm pretty sure (boss mobs have a lot of AC, so nukes with a relative small difference in min and max damage will always do min damage).

I did some research and found a formula in this topic: http://forums.anarchy-online.com/showth ... 857&page=6" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

L=3*[MC/(MC+NR*NR%)]^2.4

Where
L=Land rate
MC=Matter Creation of the NT
NR=Nano Resist of the target
NR%=nano resist defence skill of the nuke (60% being 0.60)

There is some javascript in the last page, may be useful. There are also calculations for the aggdef bar in there. But I'm not sure how correct they are. The formula above is for full def and since most of his tests were at full def that may be most accurate.

I don't think anybody really knows what NR mobs really have. It's probably somewhat equal to the MC from people with a similar level. You could make a field were people can fill that in, you don't really need to know. That way people can see what nuke is good against a target with for example high NR.
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Re: Replacement for Ramorak's NT Nuke Tables

Post by Llie » Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:41 pm

Ok, thanks for doing the leg work for me. I knew someone must have done the work of figuring out land rate, but I couldn't find the thread.

I've updated the nuke table to consider NR. The damage output is lower and I think it better reflects my observations on which nukes seem to perform better.

I've added +dmg. The problem is that the +dmg in the game is computed on a per-damage-type basis. I didn't want to have to add a bunch of fields for each type of damage buffing you have. Just enter something "average" in the box. I may add all the individual damage types in the future, but that's a bit of a pain to add for me and a pain to enter for the user.

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Re: Replacement for Ramorak's NT Nuke Tables

Post by EDTA » Tue Jun 04, 2013 6:06 am

Very nice! Just 1 request, if it's not too hard: also display the land-rate for every nano. I think it's interesting information and it also helps one to assess if they input a good value for nanoresist. Thanks a lot.
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Re: Replacement for Ramorak's NT Nuke Tables

Post by Llie » Tue Jun 04, 2013 2:06 pm

Land rate output added.

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Re: Replacement for Ramorak's NT Nuke Tables

Post by Briandmg » Sat Jun 08, 2013 6:42 am

That is some pretty badass nuke calculator. Also didn't know there was a formula to calculate nanoresist checks. Is it accurate though? According to the formula, given a fixed MC AR value, there's a certain threshold of NR whereby anything below that value, your resist chance will be 0%, even at full def. Is that true?
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Re: Replacement for Ramorak's NT Nuke Tables

Post by Llie » Sat Jun 08, 2013 7:13 pm

Not sure I understand what you mean. Are you using the nuke table to try to figure out how much NR makes you unnukable?

The way the NR formula works is that it's an asymptotic function. As the NR of the target approaches infinity, your nuke's chance to land approaches zero. There are obvious discontinuities because your land rate cannot exceed 100%. Somewhere when the target's adjusted NR reaches about 73%-74% of your MC skill, you will start missing. if you round to the nearest whole percentage, then yes, when the target's NR is over 24 times greater than your MC, then your rounded land rate would be effectively zero. But in reality there's still some infinitesimally small chance (in the case where adjusted NR is 2400% higher than your MC), you still have an 0.4% chance to land your nuke.

As for the calculations -- I took another shortcut here. There are a couple NT nukes that take 50% MC and 50% PM as attack skills. I don't differentiate those nukes from the rest. I just use 100% MC for all nukes.

I've added comments regarding my major shortcuts in my computation to the top of the nuke table page.

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Re: Replacement for Ramorak's NT Nuke Tables

Post by Briandmg » Sat Jun 08, 2013 9:33 pm

No I meant quite the opposite actually. In practice, it's quite impossible to have a 100% resist chance against a worthy opponent. What I meant was: If I don't have at least X amount of NR, will I have an absolute 0% chance of resisting nukes being thrown at me?

Lets say the guy nuking me as 1000 MC. He casts Resonance Blast against me (101% NR check). Using the formula, for L = 1 (i.e., nuke will land 100% of the time),
1 = 3*[1000/(1000+NR*101%)]^2.4
Therefore,
NR = 574

That is to say, if I don't have at least 574 NR, I will have absolutely no chance of resisting any RBs being thrown at me. That's some interesting stuff I didn't know there.

Also, could you make exceptions for the calculations of the more unique nukes? E.g. Apply 8x +dmg to Candycane? There are some endgame NT setups I've seen where Candycane benefits immensely from the insane +dmg mods, making it as powerful as RB itself.
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Re: Replacement for Ramorak's NT Nuke Tables

Post by Llie » Sun Jun 09, 2013 4:49 pm

Ah, you are absolutely correct. There is a minimum NR that makes it impossible for you to resist someone's nuke.

Candycane is a great example of a nuke for which my nuke table does a terrible job at. The actual land rate should be applied to each of the 8 hits, whereas I only apply it once for the entire nuke. From a statistical point of view, your land rate is actually quite different than the nuke table calculation and the resulting calculation are all off. Also add damage should be added on a per-damage-type basis, but instead whatever you put in the +dmg field will be indiscriminately added only once to the total possible damage of the nuke in my calculations.

As for making exceptions for various nukes... I'm going to flat out refuse to do that. Right now my nuke table is nearing the limit of complexity that I'm able to manage. If I extend it too much further, it will be overly complicated and I know I'll screw it up beyond my own ability repair and maintain it. Besides, when/if FC decides to implement the NT nano document in any form like its currently published version, all of this doesn't matter any more -- and not only that, there will be no exceptions to worry about. (All nanos will work sort of like various QLs of Detonation Matrix.)

The +dmg and the PM/MC split on land rate are two other examples where I've weighed the effort to add that versus how much more value it would add to my nuke table, and decided to give up. Candycane also does not have the same 1s attack cap that RB has. The RB/Candycane/CoTP choice is very specific to end-game NT froobs, and with only those 3 to choose from, you can basically work it out yourself by trial and error or by modifying your setup to figure out which one is best for your NT.

Edit: fixed some grammar to clear up points.

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Re: Replacement for Ramorak's NT Nuke Tables

Post by ramorak » Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:40 am

Wow.. this brings back memories! (and gives me a warm fuzzy feeling... the days in AO were some of my most memorable gaming moments :))

First off sorry the site went down (it is hosted at my old place of work). TBH I am shocked that the page would still have been useful all these years later or had I known it was down I would have seen if I could fix it.

Second...great work Llie and it is nice to see someone pick up the mantle, I am sure it is a lot more accurate than my old site as I imagine various values have been changed in the 10 years since I last played and new mechanics put into place (or even existing mechanics I hadn't factored in).

Take care and keep the NT flame burning bright!

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Re: Replacement for Ramorak's NT Nuke Tables

Post by Llie » Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:54 pm

Mastablasta searched everywhere for you. I tolled all sorts of WoW forums and sites looking for you. Can't believe it took stealing and reimplementing your nuke table to bring you out of hiding.

If we could have found you we would have been perfectly happy for you to fix your table, but instead everyone will have to live with the duct-tape-bubble-gum job I did.

I don't know how accurate the calculations are, but I think my version can be trusted to sort the nukes in order of which dishes out damage the fastest. That's all I'm willing to admit to.

Thanks for the compliment. Coming from a legendary NT as yourself, it's high praise. Best of luck on your current endeavors.

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