Weapons VS Fists

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Zdragen
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Weapons VS Fists

Post by Zdragen » Mon May 18, 2009 11:53 pm

It came to my mind, but which is the best actually? Thought It depends on what your doing.
I've heard that weapons has more hpm (hits per minute) then fists, but of what I see on certain weapons that the damage is low on the weapons but the crit modifier seems pretty decent sometimes.
But weapons isn't just for damage it can also be for MA tanking (it happens) for evades etc like the parry sticks.

Weapons I got knowledge of for froobs at least that exist:

Hazangerine Bear Claw
Torturing Tool
Lotus Parry Stick

Notice that I'm refering to melee weapons on this post I just done, since I have no idea about how the bow's work for MA Damage dealing. Any knowledge or information that can be shared is greatly appreciated.
This would be a good subject to discuss to help players if they should spend IP in weapons or just go plain fists (I did go plain fists) but at the later lvls there will be a lot of IP left to spend, at least for froobs at least what I know.

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Re: Weapons VS Fists

Post by Tarradax » Tue May 19, 2009 12:14 am

There's a few threads around this topic floating around, mostly it comes down to bows being the mandatory PvP AS and Shotguns with a massive crit setup would be pretty hilarious to try (Not sure if anyone actually ever tried it for real but the math looked solid even on an average-geared MA). Beyond that, fists or fists + MA weapon (Parry stick etc) for the usual PvM.
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Re: Weapons VS Fists

Post by Zdragen » Tue May 19, 2009 10:06 pm

Thought I ment, when will Weapons out do fists in total damage made over time?
Or does weapons get less AR since the fists gains AR from Martial Arts skill or is it the other way around?
Is there weapons that have higher crit modifier then fists or not?
When is it good to use weapons instead of fists (not including bow on this one) and when is it not worth wasting points in?
What's the max hits per minute? Comparing Fists and Weapons.

That's those type of questions I'm wondering about, which is more deep into PvM and more detailed.

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Re: Weapons VS Fists

Post by Matsuda » Wed May 20, 2009 12:06 am

I was wondering about some of the same questions. If I find time this weekend I am going to test a few ma weapons on my ma to see the dmg output.
If I get any good results I will post them here ofc.

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Re: Weapons VS Fists

Post by Lusto » Wed May 20, 2009 12:55 am

Certain MA on froob HI raid, using ql 150 torturing tool, 2*ql 200 cold damage rings and no damage type override. So cold damage is from Torturing tool and Melee from fists.

Tenth Brood Eremite Brute
cold 11% of damage with 55 hits of 641-727 average 678
cold (crit) 35% of damage with 47 hits of 2542-2626 average 2573
melee 13% of damage with 63 hits of 669-753 average 698
melee (crit) 31% of damage with 41 hits of 2585-2669 average 2619

Tenth Brood Eremite
cold 11% of damage with 51 hits of 641-847 average 688
cold (crit) 30% of damage with 39 hits of 2542-2746 average 2576
melee 15% of damage with 48 hits of 689-1463 average 1022
melee (crit) 33% of damage with 33 hits of 3312-3516 average 3360

Full Raid
cold 11% of damage with 761 hits of 538-847 average 674
cold (crit) 32% of damage with 576 hits of 1956-2759 average 2569
melee 13% of damage with 758 hits of 558-1622 average 778
melee (crit) 34% of damage with 552 hits of 1987-3626 average 2827

So what does this tell us?
- First the number of hits and critical hits doesn't differ significantly. So either the AR difference is not significant or then it affects both attacks. It is very hard to estimate this effect.
- Cold damage actually was able to OD the fists when fighting high level Brutes who have very high AC. On low AC mobs melee damage was clearly higher, but because using TT gave extra attacks it should still be competitive as long as the gap isn't too wide.

The MA who did this test commented after the raid: "I will never take the TT off anymore".
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Re: Weapons VS Fists

Post by flyingengi » Wed May 20, 2009 6:03 am

Parry stick is a NO, and same with claws at high lvls. As lusto said, TT can be nice if used in the right situation.

And from what I've heard...there use to be some massive DD setups with shotguns back pre SL.
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Re: Weapons VS Fists

Post by Lusto » Wed May 20, 2009 6:17 am

Krutt should hit 5k+ crits on 1k AR but question is how much AR MA can get on shotgun. But for high level missions shotgun should be very nice option. (High level to get lot of crit modifier and mission so that the low AR doesn't matter.)
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Re: Weapons VS Fists

Post by WorldTrader » Wed May 20, 2009 6:22 am

Martial Artist with shotgun is SO....chuck norris...lol.
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Re: Weapons VS Fists

Post by Pualee » Wed May 20, 2009 8:23 am

I believe there was a TL4 pvp twink with a shotty a few years back. SL was out, but I cannot remember if AI was released yet or no. Sometimes viable equip changes based on game changes.

I've also been considering making a leveling MA with shotty, but cannot decide on Atrox or Opi, plus I have about 4 other toons to level right now o.O

For Bow, it shares init with your fists, so that is nice, but you still have to wait to use it (pvm). There are AS bows with 0.1 equip times, so you can AS, shoot the mob as it closes, de-equip, brawl, ma special, fist attack. This gives you some bonus damage before closing into melee range. What you must be mindful of is AS is pretty weak until you have good skill in it (more modifiers unlocked). Also, you must up Bow, AS, and Conceal. That is 3 extra skills for 1 extra special, and a few regular hits. Wait until you have IP flowing (past TL3) before you invest. Also, at this time, the AS investment will give you a big dmg special. Stay fist to make life easier until your ready to add Bow (pvm).

I can't help you with the other weapons, and of course, if you pvp, gotta get an AS in there sometime.

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Another thought. I always figured ADD DMG gear provided a bigger bonus to those that multi vs single weild. You can get 3 attacks with dual weild + ma, so that add dmg applies to all 3 attacks. However, you have to consider the penalty of split requirements, expecially as froob (without symbs) because it creates more implant conflicts. I have never been high enough level to really test an add damage build with triple wield.
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Re: Weapons VS Fists

Post by Zdragen » Thu May 21, 2009 2:37 am

Hmm..for different damage types It's great to use Torturing tool, thought I wonder how many more hits per minute it gives then normal fists. Since I crit around 3,4k-3,5k with fists and if i switch to TT etc It lowers my damage and my AR.
I gotta test and count the number of hits per minute thought when I get on someday soon to see the difference between hits.
Since If Its quite some more hits then depending on the crit rate it's possible that it could beat fists.
Pretty hard thought I bet, but with dual damage on high AC mobs it's good and there is always a possiblity to switch damage on MA's anyway to do more damage against certain ACs.

Btw, the parry sticks is an option for tanking and evade gear to make it easier to solo RK mishs or high lvl melee mobs because of the large amount of +evades. Sure the damage is nerfed, but you'll still hit hard enough to kill the mob and it's a higher chance with AAD implants that you probaly wont get hit more then 5-12 times if your lucky. (Not counting in RK raid bosses then =P)

The claws is an option for TT, if you can't get the TT and it adds a small portion of evades and it hits pretty fast and goes on Phys init so you can go pretty deep into DEF and still have a really fast attack time. Plus you do get more hits per minute.

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Re: Weapons VS Fists

Post by Tyranii » Thu May 21, 2009 3:09 pm

The Claw really isn't a viable option for anything that I can think of, maybe fooling around at best.

Bow is for AS snipe only. I do that in PvM when I feel like rushing ahead in teams or always in solo mishes. An extra 2.5-13k damage off the bat is awesome.

That's interesting about the TT stats. It's incredibly easy to get one - Morgan LaFaye is usually up, and if she is killed, it's as a joke. Tara is only for ~30mins every 9 hours, the rest of the time the castle is empty. Plus she's right by 100%, so easy to run if necessary. The only issue is getting the right QL. I've only killed her once and mine is QL142 I think. I've never used it. I do have IP to almost max 1hb, so maybe I will try it out. Maybe if I get bored, I'll make yet another set of imps centered around 1hb instead of my current Bow ones. I probably won't care to try it out this weekend, unless I get 192 to fully max 1hb.
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Re: Weapons VS Fists

Post by sayonora » Sat Jul 04, 2009 5:09 am

thing is, claws crit isnt that great at all. the upside of the claw is that its verry fast (and low dmg)
on my MA I used a ql 126 claw, but that claw got outcritted and easily outdamaged by a parry stick ql 150. my MA now uses fist+lotus parry stick. her fists are 400-1100 (2890) and the parry stick is 300-900 (2000). if I take the parry stick off, where I should get more AR of, the dmg isnt that much better. I only hit near 1100 more often, crit stays same. So thing is I do more damage hitting a bit less my max but twice then hitting my max more often but only once. And I haven't even dual wielded the parry sticks yet.

allso cant forget that shotgun MA is in conflict with MA clusters, and u can't do combine MA with it, so u have to be able to count on crit when u shoot the shotgun.
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